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timblerland. As Prem Baba is Brazillian and only speaks Portuguese William Ury’s son Christian translated for us The following has been transcribed and edited for quality Patrick Kohlwey of Mountain Weekly: How did you become involved in the Boulder community
Prem Baba: It started 9 years ago It was Lizzane Ury She is Brazillian but she called Boulder home for 13 years prior to meeting me She and William Ury brought me to Boulder for the first time They felt that my message could help people here in Boulder
MW: What do you think of the Boulder community as a whole
Prem Baba: The people are very interested in getting to know themselves there is a great motivation for self knowledge and self discovery
MW: There are obviously many steps to enlightenment Do you think it is a requirement to have a pilgrimage to India for enlightenment
Prem Baba: No not necessarily Pilgrimage is a powerful spiritual practice But the place itself is not so important The most important thing is the motivation that brings you there MW: So for example a Boulder resident could indeed take a journey to the mountains with the intention of spiritual enlightenment and achieve an enlightened state
Prem Baba: Why not (laughs) Enlightenment is a phenomenon that is here and now It could take place at any location and at any moment
MW: What about for example if a prison inmate were to read your book was comforted by your words and decided to dedicate themselves to your teachings Could this person achieve enlightenment in that prison cell
Prem Baba: It is possible as well It can even be a criminal If at any given moment he opens up then he can awaken
MW: Does one need to be entirely devoted to Sachcha or can one apply your lessons of love to their own religion and still attain enlightenment
Prem Baba: Enlightenment is a phenomenon that lies beyond the mind Religion is a phenomenon of the mind So the religion itself is not important Enlightenment is for all For everyone of all religions Sachcha is not in itself a religion It’s the name of a universal principal which speaks about the truth of who we really are It speaks the truth of that which lies underneath all that we think we truly are All that we imagine that it[the truth] is So Sachcha is a word that means the irrefutable truth It is what is left after you remove all the thoughts the beliefs the ideas about what life is and what we are
MW: So basically it[Sachcha] is religion without dogmas
Prem Baba: I would not even say it is a religion It is just a path This path takes you towards the remembrance of who you are Because there is no dogma or sect you don’t have to believe in anything in particular on the contrary the idea is precisely to let go of all knowledge and ideas Pensive Prem Baba
MW: What indicated that you had become enlightened
Prem Baba: I was already born seeking for answers Seeking to understand life During this journey of mine I noticed that sometimes I wouldn’t feel pleasure Sometimes I did feel pleasure but then this pleasure would take me to pain Suddenly I noticed that everything I did in life was either to chase pleasure or to run away from pain So I would feel pleasure when my desires were satisfied and fulfilled When I would get what I wanted And on the flipside I would feel pain when I did not get my desires fulfilled and receive a no from life So I had a few moments of contentment but it was always dependent on something that was taking place on the outside Then this contentment would always take me back to suffering And so I searched for an answer this equation That was the whole essence of my search and so I started seeking in many different religions and many schools of mystery I searched for answers in psychology I found answers but they were all intellectual answers I would even understand these intellectual answers But all this knowledge was not enough to free me of all this chasing of pleasure and running away from pain I was still dependent on things that were on the outside for me to feel any joy It would all depend on a certain recognition from someone some approval from somebody It was dependent on some tenderness It was dependent on a love declaration(la
ughs) But then when I didn’t receive these things or I was not validated in things that I believe my value lied in then I would suffer again So at some point I met my master teacher my guru Sri Sachcha Baba Maharajji And for the first time in my life I caught a glimpse of that which I had been seeking I suddenly found myself in front of someone who was pure love Regardeless of what would happen he would keep loving everyone in the same way
So I said ‘Wow this sort of thing really exists’ In front of his presence I could feel the same love within At that moment I would feel pure contentment where I would need nothing else The only thing I did need was to be in his presence His presence was like a sunshine illuminating me At some point I realized that sunshine was illuminating the sun that was inside of me The only thing he was doing was removing the clouds that were covering up my own being And so I started to enter this state a few times This state where I needed nothing and I felt myself whole and fulfilled Where I felt a joy with no cause for it Where love will just flourish for everyone and for everything Where the idea of a separate eye a separate self would disappear altogether On a certain given day I was able to keep myself at this place I learned to return to this place And so enlightenment is the recognition of who we are behind the name behind the form and behind your own personal story That’s what enlightenment is When you recognize yourself as life and as love itself and this love is impersonal and selfless When this recognition takes places then all questions just disappear
MW: Lets talk about your book From Suffering To Joy: The Path of The Heart A few chapters intrigued me such as part 3: Transforming Relationships You talk about embracing sex and marriage In many cultures celibacy is integral on the path of enlightenment Could you explain how relationships and sex are actually related to enlightenment
Prem Baba: I feel that what is best for the human being to do is to follow their own heart Just as I’ve said my religion is love The path that I am teaching is the path of the heart So there is no single formula that can be applied for everyone So each person finds their own path their own way to experience unity But take a look at the human being in general I do see a great need for people to relate themselves to another Even for the fact that relationships are an important way for you to get to know your own self And as the person allows themselves to get to know themselves through their relationships the person frees themselves of all the layers that cover up their heart then at some moment it becomes possible to unite sex with love And when this union of sex and love takes place then naturally space is opened up for there to be meditation inside the relationship There is now space for silence space for peace inside the relationship itself So it is possible that in some cases there is the evolution of the sexual energy itself Which then at some moment this evolution of the sexual energy allows for celibacy to take place This kind of celibacy is a blossoming it’s a phenomenon that took place naturally Your life force or energy became more and more subtle up to a point where you just have no more motivation to be in a relationship with another person So I am not in any way judging those schools that say that celibacy is necessary for evolution It is a condition of enlightenment But what I am saying is that in my vision celibacy cannot be forced Repression can generate many difficulties for enlightenment All that that is prohibited is desired So I feel that the most appropriate path is the path that nature teaches us You don’t force a flower to grow for instance the flower just grows when it is ready The fruit can only be picked when it is ripe and mature And it is the same regarding relationships and sexuality MW: In part 6 Master Teachers of your book you state Jesus Christ is the power of forgiveness Could you expand on that belief
Prem Baba: Regardless of all that the Christian religions preach about Jesus there are so many different dogmas and beliefs regarding what it was that Jesus had transmitted We say that independent even of the fact that Jesus did exist or not in case he did exist all his teachings could be summed up in one single sentence: Father forgive them for they know not what they do This touches me very deeply By putting ourselves in his shoes at that moment when he was being severely hurt and wounded he was able to forgive the one who was inflicting so much pain because he was able to recognize that all this aggression was out of sheer ignorance I feel that this is extremely precious because he is teaching us about compassion And such compassion I feel is the remedy for this world Because if you look deeper into the suffering that exists in this world you will notice people who are carrying within themselves pacts of vengence And someway or another at some moment they believe they were hurt They were hurt because they were abandoned rejected or humiliated So they believe they have certain reasons and real motives to take revenge onto the world So for this reason they keep on recreating more and more negative situations for themselves with the magical hope that at some given day things will just turn out differently And also forcing the other to do things differently Just take a look for example on effective relationships that we were just speaking of What is it that prevents this energy from rising Just because one keeps trying to force the other in the relationship to give them what the other just doesn’t have to give them What we want are slaves to satisfy our desires I want things to be my way at the time that I want it and in just the way that I want it Where is it that this desire to enslave the other is born It’s from a point of hatred a pact of vengence Because at any given moment that person felt hurt or offended in some way That’s why I say that forgiveness is the instrument that allows for compassion to arise I feel that this is precisely the principal that Jesus tried to teach but to this day I see few Christians actually putting it to practice So that’s why I am saying that the idea is not to follow Jesus or follow what had taught but instead of following you become that teaching You become forgiveness You become compassion That is what I call Sachcha That is truth You can keep thinking about compassion but then you will keep hurting the others and that is not truth I see many leaders around giving amazing speeches about forgiveness and love but then as soon as they go home there they are again hurting their wives and children So where is truth So in this chapter I speak about what I feel is the essence of what the teachings of the master teachers were And that teaching of Jesus is the same as all the great master teachers that walked the earth MW: On that note which master teacher was in your opinion was the most positively influential
Prem Baba: I feel that all of them influenced the world for the better All these masters were channels of love and wisdom But even so their followers not always did they put these teachings to best use It is actually very easy to use an authentic teaching for the ego and for selfishness It is very easy for the ego to take over a spiritual truth a spiritual teaching I can’t say for instance that at some point someone won’t take my book and come around and say ,
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